tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7254064820989091642.post593555891826100696..comments2018-10-16T08:50:35.768-05:00Comments on Grey Stone Green: A Chat With Patrick Jackson Of Lie-Nielsen Toolworks...Ethanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10762615024207105680noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7254064820989091642.post-67585984061365859022010-01-11T16:53:21.881-06:002010-01-11T16:53:21.881-06:00While I really appreciate your efforts to gain som...While I really appreciate your efforts to gain some clarity in this question, I'm not sure you received a truly forthright answer. Not that I doubt what the LN spokeman said, there had to be more to the issue than what he revealed. LN is not obligated to share secrets of their business with us in spite of the tremendous loyalty of us...their customers. If you look at the events of the last eighteen months or so, you can see a change in direction by LN in marketing their product,; ie, direct sales in regional venues by carefully trained and chosen factory personal. This was accompanied by curtailing of any off-price selling (including by LN themselves) and reported reducing of the reseller's discount. The windup of the story is the same, although people were left to draw their own conclusions and that set the rumor mill spinning. Not the tidiest way to handle that kind of news.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7254064820989091642.post-84315865342862252272009-12-20T13:01:41.899-06:002009-12-20T13:01:41.899-06:00Thanks Ethan,
I like the direction L-N is taking....Thanks Ethan,<br /><br />I like the direction L-N is taking. Maybe more businesses should be run by the makers or growers and not the bean counters. They would only produce and/or grow what they could and would be satisfied with the living they made. Heck, we could even save our money and pay cash for the items we really wanted or needed. Wow.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7254064820989091642.post-74847196224942852242009-12-18T19:32:33.917-06:002009-12-18T19:32:33.917-06:00With a bunch of time with a higher-end bicycle sho...With a bunch of time with a higher-end bicycle shop, I totally understand LN's training point. If you're going to provide a retail discount to a vendor, they'd better work to sell your product.<br /><br />I have dealt with several top-end bicycle manufacturers, for instance Serotta, that simply will not allow you to sell their product if the staff is not trained to the manufacturer's expectation.<br /><br />The other end is pricing to the end user...<br /><br />My local Woodcraft sold a few LN tools. Most if the LN tools purchased by myself and local woodworkers have come either directly from LN or from web vendors. <br /><br />Woodcraft's sales usually only equated to the sales tax they had to charge, making the sale price equal to the direct price or web vendors. So, if you wanted a tool when the sale happened, you bought it at Woodcraft. If you wanted it now, and there was no sale, you ordered it in. Since there are Woodcraft stores in my state, Woodcraft.com charges sales tax for web orders.<br /><br />For the most part, Woodcraft rarely had items I wanted to purchase directly from them, so I went to my preferred vendors, or directly to LN.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7254064820989091642.post-10651261773385028572009-12-18T11:11:13.917-06:002009-12-18T11:11:13.917-06:00Just a quick reaction to Auguste's comment: I ...Just a quick reaction to Auguste's comment: I own a company that has made essentially the same decision LN evidently made. Last year, we opted to terminate a reseller agreement with a distributor because they were asking for deeper wholesale discounts, which, though our volume would have increased, our overall costs for manufacturing and supporting our products would have made the business less profitable. We decided that volume without profit is like eating soup with a fork ... you stay busy, but you are still hungry!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7254064820989091642.post-12111479990228696242009-12-18T10:17:30.229-06:002009-12-18T10:17:30.229-06:00I do not live in the United States, so I'm not...I do not live in the United States, so I'm not very interested in the relationship between LN and WC, but the explanations of Patrick Jackson do not convince me a lot.<br />Perhaps you should better investigate the matter, maybe doing some more mischievous or shrewd questions.<br />In my life I have never heard of a company that does not want to grow up.<br />High quality of products and good customer service can be achived even when the company grows up. It is enough to raise the space, machinery and workers. High quality and mass production can coexist if the management want it.<br />Like Bill Satko, I'm more cynical.<br />I think that quarrels between LN and WC arise only by a matter of money and control of the selling price.<br />WC discounts decrease too much LN direct sales and so gains.<br />It would be interesting to know the percentage discount LN applied to WC. Ask this to Patrick Jackson next time you hear him. I think they're around 30%.<br />I would also add a couple of considerations about LN.<br />I like LN tools (well, is there anyone who does not like them?) but I think they should rethink their marketing pricing strategies.<br />I think that now they base their pricing policy on "competition-based pricing" or "Premium pricing" or "profit maximisation" strategies, but it would be better for everyone if they return to dear old cost-plus pricing strategie.<br />Ask this too to Patrick Jackson next time.<br />Another thing they should do is to sell fully functional seconds. They say they do not sell seconds, because they re-use all as raw material, but what about the human and machine time lost? Another question for your next chat with Patrick Jackson.<br />I apologize for the length of the comment and since English is not my mother tongue, I hope you will forgive my mistakes.<br />Greetings and Merry Christmas from Auguste.Auguste Gusteaunoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7254064820989091642.post-73449514583407069452009-12-18T10:07:44.760-06:002009-12-18T10:07:44.760-06:00Marc - Thanks for the mention! Maybe I'll star...Marc - Thanks for the mention! Maybe I'll start wearing my fedora when I blog...<br /><br />Bill - I don't think L-N is following the standard business path - but in this case that's a good thing! Their #1 drive is to maintain the quality of their products. I certainly can't disagree with that direction.<br /><br />PGOster - I agree. The people who already buy L-N products aren't going to be dissuaded by this change; it's the new converts, er customers, that will take a little more effort now. Hopefully the demos will help out in that area!<br /><br />Tom - I'm humbled that Marc has my blog entry on his list of "What I'm Reading Now". Thanks for the kind words!<br /><br />Matt - You guys don't write bad stuff, either! ;) I'm really looking forward to working with L-N to organize something here in St. Louis - I guess I'll have to start saving up for it!Ethanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10762615024207105680noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7254064820989091642.post-59929302083838582372009-12-18T08:09:52.272-06:002009-12-18T08:09:52.272-06:00Great report Ethan. We hosted one of the L-N hand ...Great report Ethan. We hosted one of the L-N hand tool events at our office last year and I can tell you it was a really cool way to shop for hand tools, and hard to leave without dropping a small fortune. Thanks for getting to the bottom of this.Matt Bergerhttp://finewoodworking.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7254064820989091642.post-7098869009354315862009-12-17T22:57:33.539-06:002009-12-17T22:57:33.539-06:00Thanks for making the contact and followup. Conjec...Thanks for making the contact and followup. Conjecture can be fun, but not of much service to others. Good post. BTW used Marc Spagnuolo's FB link to find your story. Good work!Tom Buhlhttp://www.tombuhl.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7254064820989091642.post-69171882216157291622009-12-17T19:58:19.680-06:002009-12-17T19:58:19.680-06:00It is 80 miles to the nearest Woodcraft in Rochest...It is 80 miles to the nearest Woodcraft in Rochester, NY. Over the years the number of tools in the Lie Nielsen case has slowly decreased each time I get there. Conversely the number of router bits and "gadgets" has increased dramtically. Bottom line, I don't think a lot of the people going through the door are interested in tools of L-N quality. There was even a L-N tool event in town this year.<br />PGOsterAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7254064820989091642.post-24256243169538042802009-12-17T12:21:25.117-06:002009-12-17T12:21:25.117-06:00Ethan,
I found your post to be very interesting, ...Ethan,<br /><br />I found your post to be very interesting, but had a totally different reaction to it than Kari. It did not make sense to me.<br /><br />Maybe it is the cynic in me, but tightly controlling the distribution means you also tightly control the pricing. In the past, you sometimes were able to purchase Lie Nielsen products from Woodcraft at a discount. Something that Lie Nielsen probably was not able to control completely. For many people the possibility of a potential sale makes them delay their purchase. Some delayed sales become no sales. Could this also be some motivation for Lie Nielsen's decision?<br /><br />I really don't have a problem with Lie Nielsen deciding to tightly control the retail aspect of their business, especially if it makes them stronger in the future. I like their products and have demonstrated this in significantly contributing to their bottom line, while diminishing my own. I will still buy them if they continue to fit that balance between quality and pricing.<br /><br />I would like to see people more savvy than me in retail economics weigh in on this issue.Bill Satkonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7254064820989091642.post-50871988184758544932009-12-17T11:54:27.892-06:002009-12-17T11:54:27.892-06:00Thanks for getting the info on this situation Etha...Thanks for getting the info on this situation Ethan. I too heard the rumors having to do with the new Wood River planes and made some incorrect assumptions as well. But this really adds an interesting element to the story. I often wonder why so many companies are so eager to grow at any expense, including quality. Its actually refreshing to see a company take a step back in an effort to hold true to their existing standards.<br /><br />Matt and I will be mentioning your article tonight on Wood Talk Online.TheWoodWhispererhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05214863759446246762noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7254064820989091642.post-73054430285889215862009-12-17T08:20:33.048-06:002009-12-17T08:20:33.048-06:00I'm glad I looked into it a bit more, too, Kar...I'm glad I looked into it a bit more, too, Kari. I'm a bit ashamed of myself for not doing that in the first place. Ah, well I know better for the future. Don't mind making mistakes, as long as I learn from them.<br /><br />Those events are more common in your neck of the woods, Kari. I wish there were some in this area I could go to!<br /><br />I did forget to mention one thing... Patrick asked me if I would be their St. Louis contact to help organize the event in our area. I already have a place picked out! I'm looking forward to being a part of putting it together!Ethanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10762615024207105680noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7254064820989091642.post-67152731703378145942009-12-17T07:27:59.795-06:002009-12-17T07:27:59.795-06:00Ah, makes total sense. Thanks for making the inqui...Ah, makes total sense. Thanks for making the inquiry. Those hand tool events are excellent and I hope more will pop up in addition to L-N's. They're the best way to see which tools feel best to a woodworker.Kari Hultmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01224053263659415329noreply@blogger.com